Kršćanski Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Kršćanski ForumLogin

PREŠLI SMO NA https://krscanski.chat/


Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

power_settings_newLogin to reply
+3
simply
Sinke
No Nick
7 posters

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
IZVINI NE ŽELIM RASPRAVLJATI I UBEĐIVATI SE NAPRAZNO ALI... tačno si rekao to je bilo Bogosluženje jevrejsko u sinagogi iz Antiohije 
i Pavle Hriščanin ide u sinagogu u dan Subotni da učestvuje na Bogosluženju a to što je propovedao jeste jer su ga pozvali da govori ako ima reči utehe za narod.
drugo : i u 17 poglavlju piše da je pavle u 3 Subote učio o Hristu 2 stih
i kad su neki pristali za Pavlom nastavili su se sastajati pa su bili gonjeni
 inače da su se prvi Hrišćani sastajali Subotom ima puno stihova u novom zavetu nebi mi dostajalo mesta da pišem o svemu jedno pak velim da je Subota Sedmi dan poznato je svima pa i pravoslavnim i katoličkim sveštenicima koji to i priznaju no prebacili su po svom nahođenju  svetost Subote na Nedelju od početka nije bilo tako to se desilo kasnije posle smrti poslednjeg apostola Jovana na Patmosu

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Dragi Moki, naravno da nema razloga za raspravu. Samo bratski razgovaramo.

Pavle je "imao običaj", odnosno njegova misionarska strategija je bila da upotrebi prvo svoj autoritet među Jevrejima za propovedanje Jevanđelja. I on je njima tamo propovedao sve dok su želeli da ga slušaju. Nažalost, posle izvesnog vremena se po pravilu dešavalo da ga izbace napolje, ponekad i istuku. Sa svojim vernicima Hrišćanima se svakako nije okupljao u sinagogi.

Ja i dalje ne vidim u Bibliji ni jedan stih da su se Hrišćani okupljali subotom.

Subota jeste sedmi dan, uspomena na Stvaranje, mi Pravoslavni to znamo i poštujemo. Tu ništa nismo menjali niti prebacivali. Za nas je nedelja "prvi dan sedmice", uspomena na Hristovo Vaskrsenje. Nema nikakve veze sa subotom.

Svako dobro ti želim

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Zvonko M. je napisao/la:
abraham je napisao/la:
...Nemoguće je uništiti sve tragove tako velikog sukoba...

Molim za povijesno definiranje dimenzija "velikog sukoba" u odnosu na "mali sukob" tj za logiku komparacije opsega i intenziteta i trajanja i eshatološkog dosega "tako velikog sukoba"..

Logika je sledeća - ako su "svi Hrišćani svetkovali subotu", a Hrišćanstvo se već za vreme apostola proširilo od Indije do Španije onda bi "promena subote" morala da bude kao prvo geografski "veliki sukob". Uzmimo, na primer, da je 100 i neke godine episkop grada Rima u Italiji odlučio da promeni bogoslužbeni dan. Koliko bi vremena trebalo da ta promena dođe do Hrišćana u Aziji? Kako bi oni reagovali? Verovatno bi slegli ramenima - "ok majstore, kad ti tako kažeš..."

Imajući u vidu da su crkve Azije osnovane direktno od strane apostola i imale živo sećanje na reči svojih učitelja, jasno je da bi oni reagovali vrlo burno. Bilo bi tu puno poslanica, rasprava, apologija. Osim toga, treba imati u vidu da je u prva tri veka Rim bio grčka misija. Imali su grčke episkope, bogosluženje na grčkom, Sveto Pismo na grčkom. Na istoku su održani vaseljenski Sabori na kojima su donesene najvažnije teološke odluke.

Dakle, takva jedna promena nije mogla proći bez ikakvog istorijskog traga kako neki diskutanti tvrde.

U takav -Tvoj-virtualni georeligijski prostor kako smjestiti elemente iz Socratesa, Ecclesiastical History, book 5 chap.22, trans in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers,...
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm
Tu možeš pročitati:"Gotovo sve crkve u cijelom svijetu svetkuju svete tajne u subotu svake sedmice, ali Kršćani u Aleksandriji i Rimu prestali su to činiti na osnovu nekog starog predanja."


Chapter 22. The Author's Views respecting the Celebration of Easter, Baptism, Fasting, Marriage, the Eucharist, and Other Ecclesiastical Rites.


As we have touched the subject I deem it not unreasonable to say a few words concerning Easter. It appears to me that neither the ancients nor moderns who have affected to follow the Jews, have had any rational foundation for contending so obstinately about it. For they have not taken into consideration the fact that when Judaism was changed into Christianity, the obligation to observe the Mosaic law and the ceremonial types ceased. And the proof of the matter is plain; for no law of Christ permits Christians to imitate the Jews. On the contrary the apostle expressly forbids it; not only rejecting circumcision, but also deprecating contention about festival days. In his epistle to the Galatians Galatians 4:21 he writes, 'Tell me ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?' And continuing his train of argument, he demonstrates that the Jews were in bondage as servants, but that those who have come to Christ are 'called into the liberty of sons.' Galatians 5:13 Moreover he exhorts them in no way to regard 'days, and months, and years.' Galatians 4:10 Again in his epistle to the Colossians Colossians 2:16-17 he distinctly declares, that such observances are merely shadows: wherefore he says, 'Let no man judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of any holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath-days; which are a shadow of things to come.' The same truths are also confirmed by him in the epistle to the Hebrews Hebrews 7:12 in these words: 'For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.' Neither the apostles, therefore, nor the Gospels, have anywhere imposed the 'yoke of servitude' Galatians 5:1 on those who have embraced the truth; but have left Easter and every other feast to be honored by the gratitude of the recipients of grace. Wherefore, inasmuch as men love festivals, because they afford them cessation from labor: each individual in every place, according to his own pleasure, has by a prevalent custom celebrated the memory of the saving passion. The Saviour and his apostles have enjoined us by no law to keep this feast: nor do the Gospels and apostles threaten us with any penalty, punishment, or curse for the neglect of it, as the Mosaic law does the Jews. It is merely for the sake of historical accuracy, and for the reproach of the Jews, because they polluted themselves with blood on their very feasts, that it is recorded in the Gospels that our Saviour suffered in the days of 'unleavened bread.' The aim of the apostles was not to appoint festival days, but to teach a righteous life and piety. And it seems to me that just as many other customs have been established in individual localities according to usage. So also the feast of Easter came to be observed in each place according to the individual peculiarities of the peoples inasmuch as none of the apostles legislated on the matter. And that the observance originated not by legislation, but as a custom the facts themselves indicate. In Asia Minor most people kept the fourteenth day of the moon, disregarding the sabbath: yet they never separated from those who did otherwise, until Victor, bishop of Rome, influenced by too ardent a zeal, fulminated a sentence of excommunication against the Quartodecimans in Asia. Wherefore also Irenæus, bishop of Lyons in France, severely censured Victor by letter for his immoderate heat; telling him that although the ancients differed in their celebration of Easter, they did not desist from intercommunion. Also that Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, who afterwards suffered martyrdom under Gordian, continued to communicate with Anicetus bishop of Rome, although he himself, according to the usage of his native Smyrna, kept Easter on the fourteenth day of the moon, as Eusebius attests in the fifth book of his Ecclesiastical History. While therefore some in Asia Minor observed the day above-mentioned, others in the East kept that feast on the sabbath indeed, but differed as regards the month. The former thought the Jews should be followed, though they were not exact: the latter kept Easter after the equinox, refusing to celebrate with the Jews; 'for,' said they, 'it ought to be celebrated when the sun is in Aries, in the month called Xanthicus by the Antiochians, and April by the Romans.' In this practice, they averred, they conformed not to the modern Jews, who are mistaken in almost everything, but to the ancients, and to Josephus according to what he has written in the third book of his Jewish Antiquities. Thus these people were at issue among themselves. But all other Christians in the Western parts, and as far as the ocean itself, are found to have celebrated Easter after the equinox, from a very ancient tradition. And in fact these acting in this manner have never disagreed on this subject. It is not true, as some have pretended, that the Synod under Constantine altered this festival: for Constantine himself, writing to those who differed respecting it, recommended that as they were few in number, they could agree with the majority of their brethren. His letter will be found at length in the third book of the Life of Constantine by Eusebius; but the passage in

Slično tome piše i Sozomen u book 7, chap.19

Zadnja promjena: ; uto 15 svi 2007, 19:50; ukupno mijenjano 1 put.

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
abraham je napisao/la:
Takav virtualni georeligijski prostor kako smjestiti elemente iz Socratesa, Ecclesiastical History, book 5 chap.22, trans in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers,...

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm
Tu možeš pročitati:"Gotovo sve crkve u cijelom svijetu svetkuju svete tajne u subotu svake sedmice, ali Kršćani u Aleksandriji i Rimu prestali su to činiti na osnovu nekog starog predanja."

Slično tome piše i Sozomen u book 7, chap.19

Svakako, Sozomen je uglavnom prepisivao od Sokrata, a obojica su se ugledali na Euzebija i pokušali da nastave njegov rad na istoriji Crkve.

Obojica navode u to vreme uočljivu razliku između istoka i zapada Crkve - na istoku se subota smatrala za prazničan dan, a na zapadu za dan žalosti i posta. Zato su istočne Crkve subotom svetkovale "Svete Tajne" (odnosno Svetu Liturgiju) isto kao i nedeljom, a tako se čini u Pravoslavnoj Crkvi do danas. Međutim to nema nikakve veze sa "svetkovanjem subote" u smislu neradnog dana, naprotiv. Nakon Liturgije, Hrišćani su se upućivali na svoje uobičajene poslove. Btw. taj njihov pogrešan odnos prema suboti je bio jedna od primedbi koju su Pravoslavni uputili Rimu u vreme velikog raskola u XI veku.

Postojala je još u prvo vreme i razlika u proračunavanju datuma Vaskrsa i nekih drugih praznika koje ovi istoričari beleže.

Svako dobro

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
<BLOCKQUOTE>
Zvonko M. je napisao/la:
abraham je napisao/la:
Takav virtualni georeligijski prostor kako smjestiti elemente iz Socratesa, Ecclesiastical History, book 5 chap.22, trans in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers,...

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm
Tu možeš pročitati:"Gotovo sve crkve u cijelom svijetu svetkuju svete tajne u subotu svake sedmice, ali Kršćani u Aleksandriji i Rimu prestali su to činiti na osnovu nekog starog predanja."

Slično tome piše i Sozomen u book 7, chap.19

Svakako, Sozomen je uglavnom prepisivao od Sokrata, a obojica su se ugledali na Euzebija i pokušali da nastave njegov rad na istoriji Crkve.

Obojica navode u to vreme uočljivu razliku između istoka i zapada Crkve - na istoku se subota smatrala za prazničan dan, a na zapadu za dan žalosti i posta. Zato su istočne Crkve subotom svetkovale "Svete Tajne" (odnosno Svetu Liturgiju) isto kao i nedeljom, a tako se čini u Pravoslavnoj Crkvi do danas. Međutim to nema nikakve veze sa "svetkovanjem subote" u smislu neradnog dana, naprotiv. Nakon Liturgije, Hrišćani su se upućivali na svoje uobičajene poslove. Btw. taj njihov pogrešan odnos prema suboti je bio jedna od primedbi koju su Pravoslavni uputili Rimu u vreme velikog raskola u XI veku.

Postojala je još u prvo vreme i razlika u proračunavanju datuma Vaskrsa i nekih drugih praznika koje ovi istoričari beleže.

Svako dobro

Zvonko,da li ti mislis da obojica ne govore istinu????obred obred </BLOCKQUOTE>

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Otkud ti to?

Svakako da govore istinu, to što oni opisuju je praksa u Pravoslavnoj Crkvi do danas.

Međutim, ovde se ne radi o "svetkovanju subote" kao neradnog dana, već o "svetkovanju svetih tajni", a to ne znači "neradan dan". Mogu se Svete Tajne (tj. Liturgija) služiti svakog dana, a zatim se ide na uobičajeni posao. On objašnjava da su u Rimu i Aleksandriji iz nekog razloga smatrali subotu danom žalosti, pa nisu svetkovali Liturgiju tada.

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
<BLOCKQUOTE>
Zvonko M. je napisao/la:
Otkud ti to?

Svakako da govore istinu, to što oni opisuju je praksa u Pravoslavnoj Crkvi do danas.

Međutim, ovde se ne radi o "svetkovanju subote" kao neradnog dana, već o "svetkovanju svetih tajni", a to ne znači "neradan dan". Mogu se Svete Tajne (tj. Liturgija) služiti svakog dana, a zatim se ide na uobičajeni posao. On objašnjava da su u Rimu i Aleksandriji iz nekog razloga smatrali subotu danom žalosti, pa nisu svetkovali Liturgiju tada.

To je vrijedilo samo Rim i Aleksandriju,kao protest protiv judaizma.obred obred </BLOCKQUOTE>

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Dina je napisao/la:
To je vrijedilo samo Rim i Aleksandriju,kao protest protiv judaizma.

Ne baš protiv judaizma, radi se o njihovoj teologiji koja ima fokus na Hristovom stradanju, za razliku od istoka gde je fokus na Vaskrsenju. S obzirom da je Hristos u subotu bio u grobu, oni smatraju taj dan posebno tužnim.

Kada se radi o našoj temi, ovi citati iz V veka nemaju poseban značaj. Na primer Dr.S.Bacchiocchi ukazuje da u IV veku svetkovanje nedelje "nije bilo dovodjeno u pitanje" na saborima episkopa i "bilo siroko prihvaceno medju Hriscanima" (Endtime Issues, August 1, 2002). On "promenu" smešta u prvu polovinu II veka, u vreme vladavine imperatora Adrijana oko 135. godine ("Od subore do nedelje"). V vek je za naš razgovor veoma kasno. Nemamo šta tu da tražimo, već treba preispitati od II do IV veka ima li šta u vezi subote.

Zadnja promjena: ; uto 15 svi 2007, 20:03; ukupno mijenjano 1 put.

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Kako pravoslavna subjektivizacija virtualnog georeligijskog prostora "velikog sukoba nedjelja-subota" rješava prijenos subotarenja u srednji vijek?
na primjer činjenice: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287a.htm

Što bi apostol Pavao rekao na iskrivljavanje pravoslavne subote originalne plemenite masline od koje su neke grane otpale a pricijepile su se divljake..
Korjen i stablo plemenite masline nije promijenilo dan od odmora tako da se apostolskoj sukcesiji koja nema sve elemente plemenite masline počinje prigovarati u Otkrivenju 2,4 sa nedostatkom ljubavi prema cijeloj maslini -Kristovoj maslini...
abraham

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Abraham,

Mi nemamo nikakvih indicija da je "sukoba subota-nedelja" ikada bilo. To u ovom razgovoru i pokušavamo da pronađemo. Bilo je u istoriji zajednica koje su svetkovale subotu kao što su na primer Ebioniti, ali oni su ispovedali jeresi od kojih se i Adventistima diže kosa na glavi. Držali su celokupni Mojsijev zakon, obrezanje, žrtve i najgore - negirali Hristovo Božanstvo. Za "dokaz" morali bi da nađemo neke "mainstream" Hrišćane...

Osim toga, ako je "sve rešeno" od II do IV veka kako tvrdi Bacchiocchi, onda nema nikakvog smisla tražiti "dokaz" u srednjem veku.

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Nemamo šta tu da tražimo, već treba preispitati od II do IV veka ima li šta u vezi subote.

Zašto je značajan prostor od II - IV vijeka a nije u odnosu na poteze cara Konstantina?Taj dio ni Bachiochi ne interpretira precizno u odnosu na eshatologiju iz Otkrivenja.

Maxwell, u God Cares, vol.I ,p.131 kaže da ni jedan pisac iz drugog i trećeg vijeka nikada nije naveo ni jedan - jedini biblijski tekst kao opunomoćenje da se svetkuje nedjelja umjesto subote.Ni Barnaba, ni Ignacije, ni Justin, ni Irinej, Tertulijan, Clement Rimski, Aleksandrijski , ni Origen ........koji su živjeli blizu Isusovog vremena nije znao za takovo uputstvo od Isusa ili iz bilo kojeg dijela Biblije..
Dakle tragamo za virtualnim subjektivnim silama prijelaza sa subote na nedjelju ..
Pročitajmo što piše u Konstantinovu nedjeljnom zakonu od 7. III. 321 o venerabili die Solis.
Zatim sabor u Laodikeji 364 izdao je prvi crkveni zakon o nedjelji ..
abraham

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Volio bih da nema sukoba po tom pitanju - Subota - nedjelja:
"Sunday (Day of the Sun), as the name of the first day of the week, is derived from Egyptian astrology. The seven planets, known to us as Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, Venus, Mercury, and the Moon, each had an hour of the day assigned to them, and the planet which was regent during the first hour of any day of the week gave its name to that day (see CALENDAR). During the first and second century the week of seven days was introduced into Rome from Egypt, and the Roman names of the planets were given to each successive day. The Teutonic nations seem to have adopted the week as a division of time from the Romans, but they changed the Roman names into those of corresponding Teutonic deities. Hence the dies Solis became Sunday (German, Sonntag). Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God. The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts, xx 7; I Cor., xvi, 2; in Apoc., i, 10, it is called the Lord's day. In the Didache (xiv) the injunction is given: "On the Lord's Day come together and break bread. And give thanks (offer the Eucharist), after confessing your sins that your sacrifice may be pure". St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i.e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead".
St. Justin is the first Christian writer to call the day Sunday (I Apol., lxvii) in the celebrated passage in which he describes the worship offered by the early Christians on that day to God. The fact that they ment together and offered public worship on Sunday necessitated a certain rest from work on that day. However, Tertullian (202) is the first writer who expressly mentions the Sunday rest: "We, however (just as tradition has taught us), on the day of the Lord's Resurrection ought to guard not only against kneeling, but every posture and office of solicitude, deferring even our businesses lest we give any place to the devil" ("De orat.", xxiii; cf. "Ad nation.", I, xiii; "Apolog.", xvi).
These and similar indications show that during the first three centuries practice and tradition had consecrated the Sunday to the public worship of God by the hearing of the Mass and the resting from work. With the opening of the fourth century positive legislation, both ecclesiastical and civil, began to make these duties more definite. The Council of Elvira (300) decreed: "If anyone in the city neglects to come to church for three Sundays, let him be excommunicated for a short time so that he may be corrected" (xxi). In the Apostolic Constitutions, which belong to the end of the fourth century, both the hearing of the Mass and the rest from work are prescribed, and the precept is attributed to the Apostles. The express teaching of Christ and St. Paul prevented the early Christians from falling into the excesses of Jewish Sabbatarianism in the observance of the Sunday, and yet we find St. Cæsarius of Arles in the sixth century teaching that the holy Doctors of the Church had decreed that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to the Sunday, and that Christians must keep the Sunday holy in the same way as the Jews had been commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day. He especially insisted on the people hearing the whole of the Mass and not leaving the church after the Epistle and the Gospel had been read. He taught them that they should come to Vespers and spend the rest of the day in pious reading and prayer. As with the Jewish Sabbath, the observance of the Christian Sunday began with sundown on Saturday and lasted till the same time on Sunday. Until quite recent times some theologians taught that there was an obligation under pain of venial sin of assisting at vespers as well as of hearing Mass, but the opinion rests on no certain foundation and is now commonly abandoned. The common opinion maintains that, while it is highly becoming to be present at Vespers on Sunday, there is no strict obligation to be present. The method of reckoning the Sunday from sunset to sunset continued in some places down to the seventeenth century, but in general since the Middle Ages the reckoning from midnight to midnight has been followed. When the parochial system was introduced, the laity were taught that they must hear Mass and the preaching of the Word of God on Sundays in their parish church. However, toward the end of the thirteenth century, the friars began to teach that the precept of hearing Mass might be fulfilled by hearing it in their churches, and after long and severe struggles this was expressly allowed by the Holy See. Nowadays, the precept may be fulfilled by hearing Mass in any place except a strictly private oratory, and provided Mass is not celebrated on a portable altar by a privilege which is merely personal.
The obligation of rest from work on Sunday remained somewhat indefinite for several centuries. A Council of Laodicea, held toward the end of the fourth century, was content to prescribe that on the Lord's Day the faithful were to abstain from work as far as possible. At the beginning of the sixth century St. Caesarius, as we have seen, and others showed an inclination to apply the law of the Jewish Sabbath to the observance of the Christian Sunday. The Council held at Orléans in 538 reprobated this tendency as Jewish and non-Christian. From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at eh present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. It begins with an Edict of Constantine, the first Christian emperor, who forbade judges to sit and townspeople to work on Sunday. He made an exception in favour of agriculture. The breaking of the law of Sunday rest was punished by the Anglo-Saxon legislation in England like other crimes and misdemeanours. After the Reformation, under Puritan influence, many laws were passed in England whose effect is still visible in the stringency of the English Sabbath. Still more is this the case in Scotland. There is no federal legislation in the United States on the observance of the Sunday, but nearly all the states of the Union have statues tending to repress unnecessary labour and to restrain the liquor traffic. In other respects the legislation of the different states on this matter exhibits considerable variety. On the continent of Europe in recent years there have been several laws passed in direction of enforcing the observance of Sunday rest for the benefit of workmen. citat iz:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287a.htm

Zadnja promjena: ; uto 15 svi 2007, 20:46; ukupno mijenjano 1 put.

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
šta se dreba dokazati ovde ? da se Subotom treba odmarati tj. počinuti od rada ili raditi Subotom kao svakoga dana ako je Subota sedmi dan po pismu u koji je Bog počinuo onda se valja pridržavati toga i ugledati se na Stvoritelja koji je odvojio Sedmi dan i posvetio po 1 mojsijevoj zar ne brate ?

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Abraham,

Kostantin je samo ozvaničio ono što je u Hrišćanstvu već bilo ustaljeno i podigao to na državni nivo. Njegovi ukazi (bilo ih je sedam, počev od milanskog editka 313.) bili su državni zakoni, a ne crkveni. Nisu se previše doticali Crkve, osim što su je oslobodili progona i u nekim oblastima čak i favorizovali.

Možda ću vas iznenaditi, ali glavni problem u ovoj (lepoj) diskusiji jeste pogrešna pretpostavka da je nedelja "zamenila subotu" i da je tu u pitanju nekakva suprotnost. Nedelja je postala dan hrišćanskog bogosluženja još od prvog dana Hrišćanstva i to bez ikakve suprotnosti sa subotom. Objasniću uskoro.

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Subota - nedjelja u Djelima 20,7:
20:7. And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow. And he continued his speech until midnight.
In una autem sabbati cum convenissemus ad frangendum panem Paulus disputabat eis profecturus in crastinum protraxitque sermonem usque in mediam noctem
And on the first day of the week... Here St. Chrysostom and many other interpreters of the scripture explain, that the Christians even at this time, must have changed the sabbath into the first day of the week, (the Lord's day), as all Christians now keep it. This change was undoubtedly made by the authority of the church; hence the exercise of the power, which Christ had given to her: for he is Lord of the sabbath.

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
ne to nego da se treba svetkovati i ne raditi u Subotu a ti kažeš da to nema veze mislim da ima ! dali je Bog blagoslovio dan od odmora i posvetio ga po izveštaju u prvoj mojsijevoj prvom poglavlju ? to mi samo odgovori ! Zvonko brate !

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
Zvonko M. je napisao/la:
Abraham,

Kostantin je samo ozvaničio ono što je u Hrišćanstvu već bilo ustaljeno i podigao to na državni nivo. Njegovi ukazi (bilo ih je sedam, počev od milanskog editka 313.) bili su državni zakoni, a ne crkveni. Nisu se previše doticali Crkve, osim što su je oslobodili progona i u nekim oblastima čak i favorizovali.

Možda ću vas iznenaditi, ali glavni problem u ovoj (lepoj) diskusiji jeste pogrešna pretpostavka da je nedelja "zamenila subotu" i da je tu u pitanju nekakva suprotnost. Nedelja je postala dan hrišćanskog bogosluženja još od prvog dana Hrišćanstva i to bez ikakve suprotnosti sa subotom. Objasniću uskoro.

No prije toga dokaza o nepostojanju "sukoba-nedjelja-subota"
prelistajmo oce:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers
zatim Krizostoma:
homiliju 40:iz
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2001.htm
tj:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200140.htm

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
moki72 je napisao/la:
ne to nego da se treba svetkovati i ne raditi u Subotu a ti kažeš da to nema veze mislim da ima ! dali je Bog blagoslovio dan od odmora i posvetio ga po izveštaju u prvoj mojsijevoj prvom poglavlju ? to mi samo odgovori ! Zvonko brate !

Vrlo rado, ne brini toliko za mene. Smile

Ja izveštaj o Stvaranju razumem malo drugačije. Subota iz 1.Mojsijeve 2 nije sedmična subota, već puno dublji pojam. "Božiji počinak" označava savršenstvo i čistotu stvorenog sveta, što je izgubljeno Adamovim grehom. I kasnije je Izraelcima data sedmična subota samo kao simbol tog izgubljenog savršenog sveta. Ujedno i kao predslika mira i počinka koji je doneo i ponovo uspostavio Hristos. U Hristu, za mene je svaki dan "mir i počinak Božiji". Nema potrebe da se zadržavam na jedom danu u sedmici, kada mi je šabat svakog dana.

Svako dobro želim

descriptionRanohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja - Page 7 EmptyRe: Ranohriscanski spisi i subota/nedelja

more_horiz
privacy_tip Permissions in this forum:
Ne moľeą odgovarati na postove.
power_settings_newLogin to reply