Kontraverznosti

Ovu temu otvaram kako bi zajdno razmotrili konkretne tekstove iz Biblije i pokušali doći do zajedničkog stajališta uzimajući u obzir najnovija povijesna i ina istraživanja. Slična tema postoji i na Križu života, a postojala je nekad i na Katolinku.

Tema br. 1 Obečanje ludom radovanje

Post 15:7 Tada mu on reče: "Ja sam Jahve koji sam te odveo iz Ura Kaldejskoga da ti predam ovu zemlju u posjed." 8 A on odvrati: "Gospodine moj, Jahve, kako ću ja doznati da ću je zaposjesti?" 9 Odgovori mu: "Prinesi mi junicu od tri godine, kozu od tri godine, ovna od tri godine, jednu grlicu i jednog golubića." 10 Sve mu to donese, rasiječe na pole i metnu sve pole jednu prema drugoj; ptica nije rasijecao. 11 Ptice grabežljivice obarale se na leševe, ali ih je Abram rastjerivao. 12 Kad je sunce bilo pri zalazu, dubok san obuzme Abrama, a onda se na nj spusti gust mrak pun jeze. 13 Tada Bog reče Abramu: "Dobro znaj da će tvoji potomci biti stranci u tuđoj zemlji; robovat će i biti tlačeni četiri stotine godina, 14 ali narodu kojem budu služili ja ću suditi; i konačno će izići s velikim blagom. 15 A ti ćeš k ocima svojim u miru poći, u sretnoj starosti bit ćeš sahranjen. 16 Oni će se ovamo vratiti za četvrtog naraštaja, jer mjera se zlodjela amorejskih još nije navršila." 17 Kad je sunce zašlo i pao gust mrak, pojavi se zadimljen žeravnjak i goruća zublja te prođu između onih dijelova. 18 Toga je dana Jahve sklopio Savez s Abramom rekavši: "Potomstvu tvojemu dajem zemlju ovu od Rijeke u Egiptu do Velike rijeke, rijeke Eufrata: 19 Kenijce, Kenižane, Kadmonce, 20 Hetite, Perižane, Refaimce, 21 Amorejce, Kanaance, Girgašane, Jebusejce."

Čitajući ovaj odlomak, svatko normalan se pita - kome daje zemlju Kanaansku, Abramu ili njegovom budućem potomstvu? Očito je ovaj tekst bio umetnut kako bi se opravdalo zaposjedanje Obećane zemlje Izraelcima pod predvođenjem Jošue.
No u tekstu je uočljivo nekoliko stvari. Abram baš i nije oduševljen Božjim darom. On tu zemlju baš i ne osjeća kao svoju. Konačno od Hetita Efrona kupuje zemlju za grob svojoj Sari. Da je zemlja u njegovom posjedu, nebi ništa kupovao.
Abram nema pravo na tu zemlju jer je ona več naseljena i podijeljena.

Mislim da se ne bi mogla sloziti s kontraverznoscu....Bozje misli su drugacije od nasih misli....on zna od pocetka kraj....

13 Tada Bog reče Abramu: "Dobro znaj da će tvoji potomci biti stranci u tuđoj zemlji; robovat će i biti tlačeni četiri stotine godina, 14 ali narodu kojem budu služili ja ću suditi; i konačno će izići s velikim blagom.

I u ovim redcima stoji tako....a mnoge stvari nama nisu niti drage niti mile pa Bog izvede na dobro.

Dina, a koji bi naslov topica ti predložila ako te mogu pitati?

I molim te nemoj sa izjavama da su nam Božje misli nedokučive. To je floskula koju ljudi koriste kad nemaju pojma.

Ma naslov topica je OK.ali se ne slazem s kontraverzom.Floskula...hm...hm...ja bih rekla moj slucaj je kad Boga dozivis uzivo.Sve sto je obecao je ucinio...ali mi mozda nismo razumjeli u tom trenutku...ali evo idemo jednom drugom logikom....daj reci sto ti mislis?Mozda cemo se sloziti u diskusiji..

Izraelci koliko znamo nikada nisu posjedovali zemlju kako je opisana, od Nila do Eufrata. Jedini koji su je posjedovali, na koje bi se moglo odnositi to obečanje su Hiksi. Pretpostavlja se da je Josip bio u Egiptu kada su Hiksi ga osvojili i možemo povezati Josipa i njegovo gospodarenje Faraonovom riznicom (Hikski vladari su preuzeli titulu Faraona) se podudara sa uvođenjem poreza u Egiptu.
Imam situaciju. Moram se igrati s Almom.

Pravednik je napisao/la:

Izraelci koliko znamo nikada nisu posjedovali zemlju kako je opisana, od Nila do Eufrata.

Za vrijeme kasnije Davidove vladavine i Solomuna, to su im bile granice. Nisu bili naseljeni na cijelom području, ali su ga imali pod kontrolom.

Izraelci nikada nisu imali pod kontrolom područje do Eufrata jer bi u tom slučaju morali gospodariti Damaskom, a Eufrat je od Damaska naprimjer 300 km zračne linije.To je povijesna činjenica.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/syria_pol90.pdf

Mapa Sirije

Isto tako nisu nikada bili u Egiptu od kada su iz njega otišli, već naprotiv, Egipćani su napali Izraelce i osvojili Jeruzalem. Pogledaj malo Kraljeve.

Tema br. 2 Stijena ili ne?

Mk 3:16 Ustanovi dakle dvanaestoricu: Šimuna, kojemu nadjenu ime Petar

Lk 5:14 Šimuna, koga prozva Petrom, i Andriju, brata njegova, i Jakova, i Ivana, i Filipa, i Bartolomeja

Mt 10:2 A ovo su imena dvanaestorice apostola: prvi Šimun, zvani Petar, i Andrija, brat njegov; i Jakov, sin Zebedejev, i Ivan brat njegov

Iv 1:42 Dovede ga Isusu, a Isus ga pogleda i reče: "Ti si Šimun, sin Ivanov! Zvat ćeš se Kefa!"

Kao i obično, ljudi previđaju kako je Šimun dobio naziv Petar. U Marku i Luki Isus dava "nadimak" Petar Šimunu kada bira svoje apostole, međutim u Ivanu mu daje kada ga prvi put ugleda. U Mateju naprotiv to izgleda kao da je Petar bio nadimak Šimunu već od prije, možda i prije nego što je susreo Isusa. Osim toga se njegovo novo ime spominje u sasvim drugoj prigodi. Konačno tek kasnije u Mateju Isus navodi da će on postaviti crkvu, a on će biti stijena na kojoj ona stoji.

Tema br. 3 Otkuda je Šimun?

Iv 1:44 Filip je bio iz Betsaide, iz grada Andrijina i Petrova.

Mk 1:21 I stignu u Kafarnaum. Odmah u subotu uđe on u sinagogu i poče naučavati. ................. 29 I odmah pošto iziđoše iz sinagoge, uđe s Jakovom i Ivanom u kuću Šimunovu i Andrijinu.

Tema br. 4 Krv je voda

Post 18:(23) Nato se Abraham primače bliže i reče: "Hoćeš li iskorijeniti i nevinoga s krivim? (24) Možda ima pedeset nevinih u gradu. Zar ćeš uništiti mjesto radije nego ga poštedjeti zbog pedeset nevinih koji budu ondje? (25) Daleko to bilo od tebe da ubijaš nevinoga kao i krivoga, tako da i nevini i krivi prođu jednako! Daleko bilo od tebe! Zar da ni Sudac svega svijeta ne radi pravo?

Što je tu čudno? Abraham zna da njegov bratić Lot živi u Sodomi. No zašto prilikom spašavanja nevinih u gradu ne spominje Lotovo ime? Zar su posvađani? O tome nemamo nikakve informacije. Naprotiv spasio je Lota u ratu kraljeva.
Kada anđeli dolaze u Sodomu, baš ih Lot spašava pred ruljom. Zar Bog nezna da Lot živi u Sodomi? Ako zna, zar ga smatra jednakim ostalim stanovnicima grada koje želi satrti?

Kada je Bog pobio stanovnike Sodome i Gomore, pri tome su stradala nevina dječica. Već smo navikli da Bog pobije sve redom (vidi potop), ali Abraham uopće nakon tih događaja ne žali. Očito dječica nisu važna. To su samo kolateralne žrtve.

Tema br. 5 Odricanje ili mržnja?

^{Lk 14:26} "Dođe li tko k meni, a ne mrzi svog oca i majku, ženu i djecu, braću i sestre, pa i sam svoj život, ne može biti moj učenik!

Kako ja mogu voljeti i slijediti Isusa kad on traži da ja nekoga mrzim? Kad bi bilo napisano odrekni se oca i majke, žene i djece, braće i sestre, još bi nekako razumio, ali mrziti nekoga!

Hajdmo, analizirati sadržaj ovih slikovitih pojmova suprotnosti:
ljubiti - mrziti u odnosu na Učiteljstvo Isusa..
u odnosu na blaže izraze odrekni se - obitelji , sebe , stvari...
Učenik reba biti spreman slušati i učiti , ne biti ovisan..treba biti dovoljno svjestan i potpuno voljeti Isusa..Petar je volio Isusa ali ga je zanijekao vise puta..
Ako smo svojim karakterom sputani slijediti Isusa da bi postigli bolji karakter kako će nas naučiti..
Kroz učeništvo nlazimo obnovljenje uma i srca i duše - mi obnavljamo ljubav prema svojima kroz pravednost i Isusovu svetost..

Hajdmo kroz kontroverzu - ljubite neprijatelje svoje i budite spremni biti moji učenici...

Nisi Abrahame odgovorio prvi puta - mrziti nije isto što i odreći se. Nema isto značenje ta riječ.

Nisi Abrahame odgovorio prvi puta - mrziti nije isto što i odreći se. Nema isto značenje ta riječ.

Kada nekoga mrzimo ne znaci da ga trebamo ubiti.
Kada nekoga mrzimo ne znaci da ga necemo voljeti.
Kada nekoga volimo ne znaci da ga necemo mrziti.
Kada nekoga mrzimo ne znaci da ga se necemo odreci.
Kada se nekoga odrecemo ne znaci da ga necemo voljeti.
Kada nekoga volimo ne znaci da ga se necemo odreci.
Juda je mrzio i odrekao se i k tome se i objesio ...
Zasto nije na sebe zamrzio na vrijeme..
Zasto nije bio Kristov ucenik , ljubio je vise novac
a izgovarao se pragmaticki..
Kako znamo da nekoga volimo ?
Ako onoga koga volimo zapovijedi nam da cinimo grijeh
- hocemo li ga prestati voljeti ili cemo uciniti sve od sebe
da ga navedemo na pokajanje?
Zapovijedio li je Isus ultimativno ciniti grijeh
mrznjom na roditelje onima koji hoce biti Njegovi ucenici..
Ovdje se u Luci 14,26 i Mateju 37 radi o krizu..
Po zakonu mrziti roditelje je grijeh.
Krist ne zapovijeda grijeh vec ispunjenje zakona -
tko ljubi Krista ispunjava Njegove zapovijesti,
a Njegove su zapovijesti - Zakon i Proroci..

Radi komparacije strukture Tvoje kontroverznosti citiram:
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Geneva Study Bible
If any man come to me, and {d} hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
(d) If anything stands between God and him, as Theophylact says: and therefore these words are spoken in a comparative way, and not by themselves.
People's New Testament
14:26,27 If any man come to me. See notes on Mt 10:37,38.
Hate not his father. In just the same sense that he hates his own life also. That is, these must all be given up, turned away from, if we have to choose between them and Christ.
Wesley's Notes
14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father - Comparatively to Christ: yea, so as actually to renounce his field, oxen, wife, all things, and act as if he hated them, when they stand in competition with him. Mt 10:37.
Scofield Reference Notes
[1] hate
All terms which define the emotions or affections are comparative. Natural affection is to be, as compared with the believer's devotedness to Christ, as if it were hate. See Mt 12:47-50 where Christ illustrates this principle in His own person. But in the Lord the natural affections are sanctified and lifted to the level of the divine love (cf) Jn 19:26,27 Eph 5:25-28.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
26, 27. If any man, &c.-(See on [1671]Mt 10:34-36, and Mr 8:34, 35).
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
14:25-35 Though the disciples of Christ are not all crucified, yet they all bear their cross, and must bear it in the way of duty. Jesus bids them count upon it, and then consider of it. Our Saviour explains this by two similitudes; the former showing that we must consider the expenses of our religion; the latter, that we must consider the perils of it. Sit down and count the cost; consider it will cost the mortifying of sin, even the most beloved lusts. The proudest and most daring sinner cannot stand against God, for who knows the power of his anger? It is our interest to seek peace with him, and we need not send to ask conditions of peace, they are offered to us, and are highly to our advantage. In some way a disciple of Christ will be put to the trial. May we seek to be disciples indeed, and be careful not to grow slack in our profession, or afraid of the cross; that we may be the good salt of the earth, to season those around us with the savour of Christ.
Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary
Verses 25-35
See how Christ in his doctrine suited himself to those to whom he spoke, and gave every one his portion of meat. To Pharisees he preached humility and charity. He is in these verses directing his discourse to the multitudes that crowded after him, and seemed zealous in following him; and his exhortation to them is to understand the terms of discipleship, before they undertook the profession of it, and to consider what they did. See here,
I. How zealous people were in their attendance on Christ (v. 25): There went great multitudes with him, many for love and more for company, for where there are many there will be more. Here was a mixed multitude, like that which went with Israel out of Egypt; such we must expect there will always be in the church, and it will therefore be necessary that ministers should carefully separate between the precious and the vile.
II. How considerate he would have them to be in their zeal. Those that undertake to follow Christ must count upon the worst, and prepare accordingly.
1. He tells them what the worst is that they must count upon, much the same with what he had gone through before them and for them. He takes it for granted that they had a mind to be his disciples, that they might be qualified for preferment in his kingdom. They expected that he should say, "If any man come to me, and be my disciple, he shall have wealth and honour in abundance; let me alone to make him a great man." But he tells them quite the contrary.

Nastavak:
(1.) They must be willing to quit that which was very dear, and therefore must come to him thoroughly weaned from all their creature-comforts, and dead to them, so as cheerfully to part with them rather than quit their interest in Christ, v. 26. A man cannot be Christ's disciple but he must hate father, and mother, and his own life. He is not sincere, he will be constant and persevering, unless he love Christ better than any thing in this world, and be willing to part with that which he may and must leave, either as a sacrifice, when Christ may be glorified by our parting with it (so the martyrs, who loved not their lives to death), or as a temptation, when by our parting with it we are put into a better capacity of serving Christ. Thus Abraham parted with his own country, and Moses with Pharaoh's court. Mention is not made here of houses and lands; philosophy will teach a man to look upon these with contempt; but Christianity carries it higher. [1.] Every good man loves his relations; and yet, if he be a disciple of Christ, he must comparatively hate them, must love them less than Christ, as Leah is said to be hated when Rachel was better loved. Not that their persons must be in any degree hated, but our comfort and satisfaction in them must be lost and swallowed up in our love to Christ, as Levi's was, when he said to his father, I have not seen him, Deu. 33:9. When our duty to our parents comes in competition with our evident duty to Christ, we must give Christ the preference. If we must either deny Christ or be banished from our families and relations (as many of the primitive Christians were), we must rather lose their society than his favour. [2.] Every man loves his own life, no man ever yet hated it; and we cannot be Christ's disciples if we do not love him better than our own lives, so as rather to have our lives embittered by cruel bondage, nay, and taken away by cruel deaths, than to dishonour Christ, or depart from any of his truths and ways. The experience of the pleasures of the spiritual life, and the believing hopes and prospects of eternal life, will make this hard saying easy. When tribulation and persecution arise because of the word, then chiefly the trial is, whether we love better, Christ or our relations and lives; yet even in the days of peace this matter is sometimes brought to the trial. Those that decline the service of Christ, and opportunities of converse with him, and are ashamed to confess him, for fear of disobliging a relation or friend, or losing a customer, give cause to suspect that they love him better than Christ.
(2.) That they must be willing to bear that which was very heavy (v. 27): Whosoever doth not bear his cross, as those did that were condemned to be crucified, in submission to the sentence and in expectation of the execution of it, and so come after me whithersoever I shall lead him, he cannot be my disciple; that is (says Dr. Hammond), he is not for my turn; and my service, being so sure to bring persecution along with it, will not be for his. Though the disciples of Christ are not all crucified, yet they all bear their cross, as if they counted upon being crucified. They must be content to be put into an ill name, and to be loaded with infamy and disgrace; for no name is more ignominious than Furcifer-the bearer of the gibbet. He must bear his cross, and come after Christ; that is, he must bear it in the way of his duty, whenever it lies in that way. He must bear it when Christ calls him to it, and in bearing it he must have an eye to Christ, and fetch encouragements from him, and live in hope of a recompence with him.
2. He bids them count upon it, and then consider of it. Since he has been so just to us as to tell us plainly what difficulties we shall meet with in following him, let us be so just to ourselves as to weigh the matter seriously before we take upon us a profession of religion. Joshua obliged the people to consider what they did when they promised to serve the Lord, Jos. 24:19. It is better never to begin than not to proceed; and therefore before we begin we must consider what it is to proceed. This is to act rationally, and as becomes men, and as we do in other cases. The cause of Christ will bear a scrutiny. Satan shows the best, but hides the worst, because his best will not counter-vail his worst; but Christ's will abundantly. This considering of the case is necessary to perseverance, especially in suffering times. Our Saviour here illustrates the necessity of it by two similitudes, the former showing that we must consider the expenses of our religion, the latter that we must consider the perils of it.
(1.) When we take upon us a profession of religion we are like a man that undertakes to build a tower, and therefore must consider the expense of it (v. 28-30): Which of you, intending to build a tower or stately house for himself, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost? and he must be sure to count upon a great deal more than his workmen will tell him it will cost. Let him compare the charge with his purse, lest he make himself to be laughed at, by beginning to build what he is not able to finish. Note, [1.] All that take upon them a profession of religion undertake to build a tower, not as the tower of Babel, in opposition to Heaven, which therefore was left unfinished, but in obedience to Heaven, which therefore shall have its top-stone brought forth. Begin low, and lay the foundation deep, lay it on the rock, and make sure work, and then aim as high as heaven. [2.] Those that intend to build this tower must sit down and count the cost. Let them consider that it will cost them the mortifying of their sins, even the most beloved lusts; it will cost them a life of self-denial and watchfulness, and a constant course of holy duties; it may, perhaps, cost them their reputation among men, their estates and liberties, and all that is dear to them in this world, even life itself. And if it should cost us all this, what is it in comparison with what it cost Christ to purchase the advantages of religion for us, which come to us without money and without price? [3.] Many that begin to build this tower do not go on with it, nor persevere in it, and it is their folly; they have not courage and resolution, have not a rooted fixed principle, and so bring nothing to pass. It is true, we have none of us in ourselves sufficient to finish this tower, but Christ hath said, My grace is sufficient for thee, and that grace shall not be wanting to any of us, if we seek for it and make use of it. [4.] Nothing is more shameful than for those that have begun well in religion to break off; every one will justly mock him, as having lost all his labour hitherto for want of perseverance. We lose the things we have wrought (2 Jn. , and all we have done and suffered is in vain, Gal. 3:4.
(2.) When we undertake to be Christ's disciples we are like a man that goes to war, and therefore must consider the hazard of it, and the difficulties that are to be encountered, v. 31, 32. A king that declares war against a neighbouring prince considers whether he has strength wherewith to make his part good, and, if not, he will lay aside his thoughts of war. Note, [1.] The state of a Christian in this world is a military state. Is not the Christian life a warfare? We have many passes in our way, that must be disputed with dint of sword; nay, we must fight every step we go, so restless are our spiritual enemies in their opposition. [2.] We ought to consider whether we can endure the hardness which a good soldier of Jesus Christ must expect and count upon, before we enlist ourselves under Christ's banner; whether we are able to encounter the forces of hell and earth, which come against us twenty thousand strong. [3.] Of the two it is better to make the best terms we can with the world than pretend to renounce it and afterwards, when tribulation and persecution arise because of the word, to return to it. That young man that could not find in his heart to part with his possessions for Christ did better to go away from Christ sorrowing than to have staid with him dissembling.
This parable is another way applicable, and may be taken as designed to teach us to begin speedily to be religious, rather than to begin cautiously; and may mean the same with Mt. 5:25, Agree with thine adversary quickly. Note, First, Those that persist in sin make war against God, the most unnatural, unjustifiable war; they rebel against their lawful sovereign, whose government is perfectly just and good. Secondly, The proudest and most daring sinner is no equal match for God; the disproportion of strength is much greater than that here supposed between ten thousand and twenty thousand. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? No, surely; who knows the power of his anger? In consideration of this, it is our interest to make peace with him. We need not send to desire conditions of peace; they are offered to us, and are unexceptionable, and highly to our advantage. Let us acquaint ourselves with them, and be at peace; do this in time, while the other is yet a great way off; for delays in such a case are highly dangerous, and make after-applications difficult.
But the application of this parable here (v. 33) is to the consideration that ought to be exercised when we take upon us a profession of religion. Solomon saith, With good advice make war (Prov. 20:18); for he that draws the sword throws away the scabbard; so with good advice enter upon a profession of religion, as those that know that except you forsake all you have you cannot be Christ's disciples; that is, except you count upon forsaking all and consent to it, for all that will live godly in Christ Jesus must suffer persecution, and yet continue to live godly.
3. He warns them against apostasy and a degeneracy of mind from the truly Christian spirit and temper, for that would make them utterly useless, v. 34, 35. (1.) Good Christians are the salt of the earth, and good ministers especially (Mt. 5:13); and this salt is good and of great use; by their instructions and examples they season all they converse with, to keep them from putrefying, and to quicken them, and make them savoury. (2.) Degenerate Christians, who, rather than part with what they have in the world, will throw up their profession, and then of course become carnal, and worldly, and wholly destitute of a Christian spirit, are like salt that has lost its savour, like that which the chemists call the caput mortuum, that has all its salts drawn from it, that is the most useless worthless thing in the world; it has no manner of virtue or good property in it. [1.] It can never be recovered: Wherewith shall it be seasoned? You cannot salt it. This intimates that it is extremely difficult, and next to impossible, to recover an apostate, Heb. 6:4-6. If Christianity will not prevail to cure men of their worldliness and sensuality, if that remedy has been tried in vain, their ease must even be concluded desperate. [2.] It is of no use. It is not fit, as dung is, for the land, to manure that, nor will it be the better if it be laid in the dunghill to rot; there is nothing to be got out of it. A professor of religion whose mind and manners are depraved is the most insipid animal that can be. If he speaks of the things of God, of which he has had some knowledge, it is so awkwardly that none are the better for it: it is a parable in the mouth of a fool. [3.] It is abandoned: Men cast it out, as that which they will have no more to do with. Such scandalous professors ought to be cast out of the church, not only because they have forfeited all the honours and privileges of their church-membership, but because there is danger that others will be infected by them. Our Saviour concludes this with a call to all to take notice of it, and to take warning: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Now can the faculty of hearing be better employed than in attending to the word of Christ, and particularly to the alarms he has given us of the danger we are in of apostasy, and the danger we run ourselves into by apostasy?

No, dodao bih i Wslyev komentar:

Wesley's Notes on the Bible

1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
14:2 There was a certain man before him - It does not appear that he was come thither with any insidious design. Probably he came, hoping for a cure, or perhaps was one of the family.
3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
14:3 And Jesus answering, spake - Answering the thoughts which he saw rising in their hearts.
4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things.
7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.
14:7 He spake a parable - The ensuing discourse is so termed, because several parts are not to be understood literally. The general scope of it is, Not only at a marriage feast, but on every occasion, he that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that abaseth himself shall be exalted.
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
14:11 Mt 23:12.
12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
14:12 Call not thy friends - That is, I do not bid thee call thy friends or thy neighbours. Our Lord leaves these offices of humanity and courtesy as they were, and teaches a higher duty. But is it not implied herein, that we should be sparing in entertaining those that need it not, in order to assist those that do need, with all that is saved from those needless entertainments? Lest a recompense be made - This fear is as much unknown to the world, as even the fear of riches.
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
14:14 One of them that sat at table hearing these things - And being touched therewith, said, Happy is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God - Alluding to what had just been spoken. It means, he that shall have a part in the resurrection of the just.
15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
14:16 Then said he - Continuing the allusion. A certain man made a great supper - As if he had said, All men are not sensible of this happiness. Many might have a part in it, and will not.
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
14:18 They all began to make excuse - One of them pleads only his own will, I go: another, a pretended necessity, I must needs go: the third, impossibility, I cannot come: all of them want the holy hatred mentioned Lu 14:26. All of them perish by things in themselves lawful. I must needs go - The most urgent worldly affairs frequently fall out just at the time when God makes the freest offers of salvation.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
14:21 The servant came and showed his lord these things - So ministers ought to lay before the Lord in prayer the obedience or disobedience of their hearers.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
14:23 Compel them to come in - With all the violence of love, and the force of God's word. Such compulsion, and such only, in matters of religion, was used by Christ and his apostles.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
14:24 For refers to Go out, Lu 14:23.
25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father - Comparatively to Christ: yea, so as actually to renounce his field, oxen, wife, all things, and act as if he hated them, when they stand in competition with him. Mt 10:37.

32 Tko god se, dakle, prizna mojim pred ljudima, priznat ću se i ja njegovim pred Ocem, koji je na nebesima. 33 A tko se odreče mene pred ljudima, odreći ću se i ja njega pred svojim Ocem, koji je na nebesima.
34 Ne mislite da sam došao mir donijeti na zemlju. Ne, nisam došao donijeti mir, nego mač. 35 Ta došao sam rastaviti čovjeka od oca njegova i kćer od majke njezine i snahu od svekrve njezine; 36 i neprijatelji će čovjeku biti ukućani njegovi.
37 Tko ljubi oca ili majku više nego mene, nije mene dostojan. Tko ljubi sina ili kćer više nego mene, nije mene dostojan. 38 Tko ne uzme svoga križa i ne pođe za mnom, nije mene dostojan. 39 Tko nađe život svoj, izgubit će ga, a tko izgubi svoj život poradi mene, naći će ga.

40 Tko vas prima, mene prima; a tko prima mene, prima onoga koji je mene poslao. 41 Tko prima proroka jer je prorok, primit će plaću proročku; tko prima pravednika jer je pravednik, primit će plaću pravedničku. 42 Tko napoji jednoga od ovih najmanjih samo čašom hladne vode zato što je moj učenik, zaista, kažem vam, neće mu propasti plaća.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
14:28 And which of you intending to build a tower - That is, and whoever of you intends to follow me, let him first seriously weigh these things.
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
14:31 Another king - Does this mean, the prince of this world? Certainly he has greater numbers on his side. How numerous are his children and servants!
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
14:33 So - Like this man, who, being afraid to face his enemy, sends to make peace with him, every one who forsaketh not all that he hath - By withdrawing his affections from all the creatures; By enjoying them only in and for God, only in such a measure and manner as leads to him; By hating them all, in the sense above mentioned, cannot be my disciple - But will surely desist from building that tower, neither can he persevere in fighting the good fight of faith.
34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
14:34 Salt - Every Christian, but more eminently every minister. Mt 5:13; Mr 9:50.
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Braćo Abrame, Jakove, pretjerali ste u duljini vaših postova.

Zato molim sažetak i to na Hrvatskom.

Nadam se da ce i drugi biti zadovoljni skracivanjem dugih postova, ali ne zaboravi pokusati razgovarati a ne samo odgovoriti na pitanja o mrznji i ljubavi u odnosu na ovu komparaciju u kojoj kontroverzu nije tesko sofisticirati ..
14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father - Comparatively to Christ: yea, so as actually to renounce his field, oxen, wife, all things, and act as if he hated them, when they stand in competition with him. Mt 10:37.

32 Tko god se, dakle, prizna mojim pred ljudima, priznat ću se i ja njegovim pred Ocem, koji je na nebesima. 33 A tko se odreče mene pred ljudima, odreći ću se i ja njega pred svojim Ocem, koji je na nebesima.
34 Ne mislite da sam došao mir donijeti na zemlju. Ne, nisam došao donijeti mir, nego mač. 35 Ta došao sam rastaviti čovjeka od oca njegova i kćer od majke njezine i snahu od svekrve njezine; 36 i neprijatelji će čovjeku biti ukućani njegovi.
37 Tko ljubi oca ili majku više nego mene, nije mene dostojan. Tko ljubi sina ili kćer više nego mene, nije mene dostojan. 38 Tko ne uzme svoga križa i ne pođe za mnom, nije mene dostojan. 39 Tko nađe život svoj, izgubit će ga, a tko izgubi svoj život poradi mene, naći će ga.

40 Tko vas prima, mene prima; a tko prima mene, prima onoga koji je mene poslao. 41 Tko prima proroka jer je prorok, primit će plaću proročku; tko prima pravednika jer je pravednik, primit će plaću pravedničku. 42 Tko napoji jednoga od ovih najmanjih samo čašom hladne vode zato što je moj učenik, zaista, kažem vam, neće mu propasti plaća.

Ako vise volimo izvrsavati zakon bez vjere koja potvrdjuje zakon - tada ne dolazimo u dodir sa miloscu Spasitelja.
Ljubav pod zakonom jos je u grijehu..Ako ne vidimo razliku komparacije - vise voljeti Krista a manje roditelje , kako bi se ljubav prema roditeljima uzdigla iznad zakona ispunjenjem zakona po Kristu , tada kontroverza zacudjuje i daje na razmisljanje koje se ne moze dovrsiti bez vjere u peravednika koji ce nam miloscu dati opravdanje prijasnjih grijeha a u posvecenju - ljubav prema roditeljima vecu nego smo je imali kad smo ih ljubili bivsi pod zakonom..