Psalam 22

Zanima me ako mi netko od poštovanih sugovornika zna pojasniti ovaj psalam i to stih 14 i stih 17.
Naime o čemu se tu radi.
U stihu 14 stoji:

Ždrijela svoja razvaljujuna me, ko lav ('ărîy ) koji plijen kida i riče.

U stihu 17 stoji:

Opkolio me čopor pasa,rulje me zločinačke okružile.Probodoše( 'ărîy ) mi ruke i noge...

'ărîy = lav


U 14 stihu je hebrejska riječ koja znači lav ispravno prevedena dok se ta ista riječ u 17 stihu prevodi sa probodoše!
Zašto je hebrejska riječ lav zamijenjena za probodoše?

Psalm 22 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants and Vowels)

1 לַמְנַצֵּחַ עַל־אַיֶּלֶת הַשַּׁחַר מִזְמֹור לְדָוִד׃ אֵלִי אֵלִי לָמָה עֲזַבְתָּנִי רָחֹוק מִישׁוּעָתִי דִּבְרֵי שַׁאֲגָתִי׃
2 אֱ‍לֹהַי אֶקְרָא יֹומָם וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה וְלַיְלָה וְלֹא־דוּמִיָּה לִי׃
3 וְאַתָּה קָדֹושׁ יֹושֵׁב תְּהִלֹּות יִשְׂרָאֵל׃
4 בְּךָ בָּטְחוּ אֲבֹתֵינוּ בָּטְחוּ וַתְּפַלְּטֵמֹו׃
5 אֵלֶיךָ זָעֲקוּ וְנִמְלָטוּ בְּךָ בָטְחוּ וְלֹא־בֹושׁוּ׃
6 וְאָנֹכִי תֹולַעַת וְלֹא־אִישׁ חֶרְפַּת אָדָם וּבְזוּי עָם׃
7 כָּל־רֹאַי יַלְעִגוּ לִי יַפְטִירוּ בְשָׂפָה יָנִיעוּ רֹאשׁ׃
8 גֹּל אֶל־יְהוָה יְפַלְּטֵהוּ יַצִּילֵהוּ כִּי חָפֵץ בֹּו׃
9 כִּי־אַתָּה גֹחִי מִבָּטֶן מַבְטִיחִי עַל־שְׁדֵי אִמִּי׃
10 עָלֶיךָ הָשְׁלַכְתִּי מֵרָחֶם מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי אֵלִי אָתָּה׃
11 אַל־תִּרְחַק מִמֶּנִּי כִּי־צָרָה קְרֹובָה כִּי־אֵין עֹוזֵר׃
12 סְבָבוּנִי פָּרִים רַבִּים אַבִּירֵי בָשָׁן כִּתְּרוּנִי׃
13 פָּצוּ עָלַי פִּיהֶם אַרְיֵה טֹרֵף וְשֹׁאֵג׃
14 כַּמַּיִם נִשְׁפַּכְתִּי וְהִתְפָּרְדוּ כָּל־עַצְמֹותָי הָיָה לִבִּי כַּדֹּונָג נָמֵס בְּתֹוךְ מֵעָי׃
15 יָבֵשׁ כַּחֶרֶשׂ ׀ כֹּחִי וּלְשֹׁונִי מֻדְבָּק מַלְקֹוחָי וְלַעֲפַר־מָוֶת תִּשְׁפְּתֵנִי׃
16 כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי׃
17 אֲסַפֵּר כָּל־עַצְמֹותָי הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ יִרְאוּ־בִי׃
18 יְחַלְּקוּ בְגָדַי לָהֶם וְעַל־לְבוּשִׁי יַפִּילוּ גֹורָל׃
19 וְאַתָּה יְהוָה אַל־תִּרְחָק אֱיָלוּתִי לְעֶזְרָתִי חוּשָׁה׃
20 הַצִּילָה מֵחֶרֶב נַפְשִׁי מִיַּד־כֶּלֶב יְחִידָתִי׃
21 הֹושִׁיעֵנִי מִפִּי אַרְיֵה וּמִקַּרְנֵי רֵמִים עֲנִיתָנִי׃
22 אֲסַפְּרָה שִׁמְךָ לְאֶחָי בְּתֹוךְ קָהָל אֲהַלְלֶךָּ׃
23 יִרְאֵי יְהוָה ׀ הַלְלוּהוּ כָּל־זֶרַע יַעֲקֹב כַּבְּדוּהוּ וְגוּרוּ מִמֶּנּוּ כָּל־זֶרַע יִשְׂרָאֵל׃
24 כִּי לֹא־בָזָה וְלֹא שִׁקַּץ עֱנוּת עָנִי וְלֹא־הִסְתִּיר פָּנָיו מִמֶּנּוּ וּבְשַׁוְּעֹו אֵלָיו שָׁמֵעַ׃
25 מֵאִתְּךָ תְהִלָּתִי בְּקָהָל רָב נְדָרַי אֲשַׁלֵּם נֶגֶד יְרֵאָיו׃
26 יֹאכְלוּ עֲנָוִים ׀ וְיִשְׂבָּעוּ יְהַלְלוּ יְהוָה דֹּרְשָׁיו יְחִי לְבַבְכֶם לָעַד׃
27 יִזְכְּרוּ ׀ וְיָשֻׁבוּ אֶל־יְהוָה כָּל־אַפְסֵי־אָרֶץ וְיִשְׁתַּחֲווּ לְפָנֶיךָ כָּל־מִשְׁפְּחֹות גֹּויִם׃
28 כִּי לַיהוָה הַמְּלוּכָה וּמֹשֵׁל בַּגֹּויִם׃
29 אָכְלוּ וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲוּוּ ׀ כָּל־דִּשְׁנֵי־אֶרֶץ לְפָנָיו יִכְרְעוּ כָּל־יֹורְדֵי עָפָר וְנַפְשֹׁו לֹא חִיָּה׃
30 זֶרַע יַעַבְדֶנּוּ יְסֻפַּר לַאדֹנָי לַדֹּור׃
31 יָבֹאוּ וְיַגִּידוּ צִדְקָתֹו לְעַם נֹולָד כִּי עָשָׂה׃

Nastavak:


Hrvatski:
1 Zborovođi. Po napjevu Košuta u zoru. Psalam. Davidov. (1a) Bože moj, Bože moj, zašto si me ostavio? Daleko si od ridanja moga.
2 Bože moj, vičem danju, al'ne odvraćaš; noću vapijem i nema mi počinka.
3 A ipak, ti u Svetištu prebivaš, Nado Izraelova!
4 U tebe se očevi naši uzdaše, uzdaše se, i ti ih izbavi;
5 k tebi su vikali i spasavali se, u tebe se uzdali, i postidjeli se nisu.
6 A ja, crv sam, a ne čovjek, ruglo ljudi i naroda prezir.
7 Koji me vode, podruguju se meni, razvlače usne, mašu glavom:
8 U Jahvu se on uzda, neka ga sad izbavi, neka ga spasi ako mu omilje!
9 Iz krila majčina ti si me izveo, mir mi dao na grudima majke.
10 Tebi sam predan iz materine utrobe, od krila majčina ti si Bog moj.
11 Ne udaljuj se od mene, blizu je nevolja, a nikog nema da mi pomogne.
12 Opkoliše me junci mnogobrojni, bašanski bikovi okružiše mene.
13 Ždrijela svoja razvaljuju na me k'o lav koji plijen kida i riče.
14 Kao voda razlih se, sve mi se kosti rasuše; srce mi posta poput voska, topi se u grudima mojim.
15 Grlo je moje kao crijep suho, i moj se jezik uz nepce slijepi: u prah smrtni bacio si mene.
16 Opkolio me čopor pasa, rulje me zločinačke okružile. Probodoše mi ruke i noge,
17 sve kosti svoje prebrojiti mogu, a oni me gledaju i zure na me.
18 Haljine moje dijele među sobom i kocku bacaju za odjeću moju.
19 Ali ti, o Jahve, daleko mi ne budi; snago moja, pohiti mi u pomoć!
20 Dušu moju istrgni maču, iz šapa pasjih život moj.
21 Spasi me iz ralja lavljih i jadnu mi dušu od rogova bivoljih!
22 A sada, braći ću svojoj naviještat' ime tvoje, hvalit ću te usred zbora.
23 Koji se bojite Jahve, hvalite njega! Svi od roda Jakovljeva, slavite njega! Svi potomci Izraelovi, njega se bojte!
24 Jer nije prezreo ni zaboravio muku jadnika, i nije sakrio lice svoje od njega; kad ga je zazvao, on ga je čuo.
25 Zato ću te hvaliti u zboru veliku, pred vjernicima tvojim izvršit' zavjete.
26 Siromasi će jesti i nasitit će se, hvalit će Jahvu koji traže njega: nek' živi srce vaše dovijeka!
27 Spomenut će se i Jahvi se vratit' svi krajevi zemlje; pred njim će n§icÄe pasti sve obitelji pogana.
28 Jer Jahvino je kraljevstvo, on je vladar pucima.
29 Njemu će se jedinom klanjati svi koji snivaju u zemlji, pred njim se sagnuti svi koji u prah silaze. I moja će duša za njega živjeti,
30 njemu će služiti potomstvo moje. O Gospodu će se pripovijedat'
31 slijedećem koljenu, o njegovoj pravdi naviještati narodu budućem: Ovo učini Jahve!


Stih 13 je u nekim prijevodima 14, tako i 16 je 17..
hebrejski:
13 פָּצוּ עָלַי פִּיהֶם אַרְיֵה טֹרֵף וְשֹׁאֵג׃
grčki:
13 ἤνοιξαν ἐπ' ἐμὲ τὸ στόμα αὐτῶν ὡς λέων ὁ ἁρπάζων καὶ ὠρυόμενος

16 כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי׃
16 ὅτι ἐκύκλωσάν με κύνες πολλοί συναγωγὴ πονηρευομένων περιέσχον με ὤρυξαν χεῖράς μου καὶ πόδας

Uporedimo višejezično:

Psalm 22:13 Multilingual Bible

zatim značenje:


They gaped
patsah (paw-tsaw')
to rend, i.e. open (especially the mouth) -- deliver, gape, open, rid, utter.





upon me with their mouths
peh (peh)
the mouth (as the means of blowing), whether literal or figurative (particularly speech); specifically edge, portion or side; adverbially (with preposition) according to





as a ravening
taraph (taw-raf')
to pluck off or pull to pieces; causatively to supply with food (as in morsels) -- catch, without doubt, feed, ravin, rend in pieces, surely, tear (in pieces).




and a roaring
sha'ag (shaw-ag')
to rumble or moan -- mightily, roar.



lion
'ariy (ar-ee')
a lion -- (young) lion, + pierce (from the margin).

Uporedimo sa

Psalm 17:12 He is like a lion that is eager to tear, And as a young lion lurking in hiding places.
zatima
Like, etc. [Heb.] The likeness of him, (that is, of every one of them) is as a lion that desireth to ravin. Ps 7:2 22:13 2Ti 4:17 1Pe 5:8

3.nastavak:
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<< Psalm 22 >> Matthew Henry Commentary

<hr style="COLOR: #ddeeff" align=center width="100%" noShade SIZE=1> Complaints of discouragement. (1-10) With prayer for deliverance. (11-21) Praises for mercies and redemption. (22-31) <hr style="COLOR: #ddeeff" align=center width="100%" noShade SIZE=1> 1-10 The Spirit of Christ, which was in the prophets, testifies in this psalm, clearly and fully, the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. We have a sorrowful complaint of God's withdrawings. This may be applied to any child of God, pressed down, overwhelmed with grief and terror. Spiritual desertions are the saints' sorest afflictions; but even their complaint of these burdens is a sign of spiritual life, and spiritual senses exercised. To cry our, My God, why am I sick? why am I poor? savours of discontent and worldliness. But, Why hast thou forsaken me? is the language of a heart binding up its happiness in God's favour. This must be applied to Christ. In the first words of this complaint, he poured out his soul before God when he was upon the cross, Mt 27:46. Being truly man, Christ felt a natural unwillingness to pass through such great sorrows, yet his zeal and love prevailed. Christ declared the holiness of God, his heavenly Father, in his sharpest sufferings; nay, declared them to be a proof of it, for which he would be continually praised by his Israel, more than for all other deliverances they received. Never any that hoped in thee, were made ashamed of their hope; never any that sought thee, sought thee in vain. Here is a complaint of the contempt and reproach of men. The Saviour here spoke of the abject state to which he was reduced. The history of Christ's sufferings, and of his birth, explains this prophecy. <hr style="COLOR: #ddeeff" align=center width="100%" noShade SIZE=1> 11-21 In these verses we have Christ suffering, and Christ praying; by which we are directed to look for crosses, and to look up to God under them. The very manner of Christ's death is described, though not in use among the Jews. They pierced his hands and his feet, which were nailed to the accursed tree, and his whole body was left so to hang as to suffer the most severe pain and torture. His natural force failed, being wasted by the fire of Divine wrath preying upon his spirits. Who then can stand before God's anger? or who knows the power of it? The life of the sinner was forfeited, and the life of the Sacrifice must be the ransom for it. Our Lord Jesus was stripped, when he was crucified, that he might clothe us with the robe of his righteousness. Thus it was written, therefore thus it behoved Christ to suffer. Let all this confirm our faith in him as the true Messiah, and excite our love to him as the best of friends, who loved us, and suffered all this for us. Christ in his agony prayed, prayed earnestly, prayed that the cup might pass from him. When we cannot rejoice in God as our song, yet let us stay ourselves upon him as our strength; and take the comfort of spiritual supports, when we cannot have spiritual delights. He prays to be delivered from the Divine wrath. He that has delivered, doth deliver, and will do so. We should think upon the sufferings and resurrection of Christ, till we feel in our souls the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings. <hr style="COLOR: #ddeeff" align=center width="100%" noShade SIZE=1> 22-31 The Saviour now speaks as risen from the dead. The first words of the complaint were used by Christ himself upon the cross; the first words of the triumph are expressly applied to him, Heb 2:12. All our praises must refer to the work of redemption. The suffering of the Redeemer was graciously accepted as a full satisfaction for sin. Though it was offered for sinful men, the Father did not despise or abhor it for our sakes. This ought to be the matter of our thanksgiving. All humble, gracious souls should have a full satisfaction and happiness in him. Those that hunger and thirst after righteousness in Christ, shall not labour for that which satisfies not. Those that are much in praying, will be much in thanksgiving. Those that turn to God, will make conscience of worshipping before him. Let every tongue confess that he is Lord. High and low, rich and poor, bond and free, meet in Christ. Seeing we cannot keep alive our own souls, it is our wisdom, by obedient faith, to commit our souls to Christ, who is able to save and keep them alive for ever. A seed shall serve him. God will have a church in the world to the end of time. They shall be accounted to him for a generation; he will be the same to them that he was to those who went before them. His righteousness, and not any of their own, they shall declare to be the foundation of all their hopes, and the fountain of all their joys. Redemption by Christ is the Lord's own doing. Here we see the free love and compassion of God the Father, and of our Lord Jesus Christ, for us wretched sinners, as the source of all grace and consolation; the example we are to follow, the treatment as Christians we are to expect, and the conduct under it we are to adopt. Every lesson may here be learned that can profit the humbled soul. Let those who go about to establish their own righteousness inquire, why the beloved Son of God should thus suffer, if their own doings could atone for sin? Let the ungodly professor consider whether the Saviour thus honoured the Divine law, to purchase him the privilege of despising it. Let the careless take warning to flee from the wrath to come, and the trembling rest their hopes upon this merciful Redeemer. Let the tempted and distressed believer cheerfully expect a happy end of every trial.[/size] Rječnik-konkordanca: Crying Gape Gaped Lion Lions Mouth Mouths Open Opened Prey Ravening Roaring Tearing Wide Lion Lions

Zadnja promjena: abraham; sub 12 tra 2008, 17:26; ukupno mijenjano 1 put.

abraham je napisao/la:

3.nastavak:
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<< Psalm 22 >> Matthew Henry Commentary

<hr style="color: rgb(221, 238, 255);" align="center" noshade="noshade" size="1" width="100%"> Complaints of discouragement. (1-10) With prayer for deliverance. (11-21) Praises for mercies and redemption. (22-31) <hr style="color: rgb(221, 238, 255);" align="center" noshade="noshade" size="1" width="100%"> 1-10 The Spirit of Christ, which was in the prophets, testifies in this psalm, clearly and fully, the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. We have a sorrowful complaint of God's withdrawings. This may be applied to any child of God, pressed down, overwhelmed with grief and terror. Spiritual desertions are the saints' sorest afflictions; but even their complaint of these burdens is a sign of spiritual life, and spiritual senses exercised. To cry our, My God, why am I sick? why am I poor? savours of discontent and worldliness. But, Why hast thou forsaken me? is the language of a heart binding up its happiness in God's favour. This must be applied to Christ. In the first words of this complaint, he poured out his soul before God when he was upon the cross, Mt 27:46. Being truly man, Christ felt a natural unwillingness to pass through such great sorrows, yet his zeal and love prevailed. Christ declared the holiness of God, his heavenly Father, in his sharpest sufferings; nay, declared them to be a proof of it, for which he would be continually praised by his Israel, more than for all other deliverances they received. Never any that hoped in thee, were made ashamed of their hope; never any that sought thee, sought thee in vain. Here is a complaint of the contempt and reproach of men. The Saviour here spoke of the abject state to which he was reduced. The history of Christ's sufferings, and of his birth, explains this prophecy. <hr style="color: rgb(221, 238, 255);" align="center" noshade="noshade" size="1" width="100%"> 11-21 In these verses we have Christ suffering, and Christ praying; by which we are directed to look for crosses, and to look up to God under them. The very manner of Christ's death is described, though not in use among the Jews. They pierced his hands and his feet, which were nailed to the accursed tree, and his whole body was left so to hang as to suffer the most severe pain and torture. His natural force failed, being wasted by the fire of Divine wrath preying upon his spirits. Who then can stand before God's anger? or who knows the power of it? The life of the sinner was forfeited, and the life of the Sacrifice must be the ransom for it. Our Lord Jesus was stripped, when he was crucified, that he might clothe us with the robe of his righteousness. Thus it was written, therefore thus it behoved Christ to suffer. Let all this confirm our faith in him as the true Messiah, and excite our love to him as the best of friends, who loved us, and suffered all this for us. Christ in his agony prayed, prayed earnestly, prayed that the cup might pass from him. When we cannot rejoice in God as our song, yet let us stay ourselves upon him as our strength; and take the comfort of spiritual supports, when we cannot have spiritual delights. He prays to be delivered from the Divine wrath. He that has delivered, doth deliver, and will do so. We should think upon the sufferings and resurrection of Christ, till we feel in our souls the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings. <hr style="color: rgb(221, 238, 255);" align="center" noshade="noshade" size="1" width="100%"> 22-31 The Saviour now speaks as risen from the dead. The first words of the complaint were used by Christ himself upon the cross; the first words of the triumph are expressly applied to him, Heb 2:12. All our praises must refer to the work of redemption. The suffering of the Redeemer was graciously accepted as a full satisfaction for sin. Though it was offered for sinful men, the Father did not despise or abhor it for our sakes. This ought to be the matter of our thanksgiving. All humble, gracious souls should have a full satisfaction and happiness in him. Those that hunger and thirst after righteousness in Christ, shall not labour for that which satisfies not. Those that are much in praying, will be much in thanksgiving. Those that turn to God, will make conscience of worshipping before him. Let every tongue confess that he is Lord. High and low, rich and poor, bond and free, meet in Christ. Seeing we cannot keep alive our own souls, it is our wisdom, by obedient faith, to commit our souls to Christ, who is able to save and keep them alive for ever. A seed shall serve him. God will have a church in the world to the end of time. They shall be accounted to him for a generation; he will be the same to them that he was to those who went before them. His righteousness, and not any of their own, they shall declare to be the foundation of all their hopes, and the fountain of all their joys. Redemption by Christ is the Lord's own doing. Here we see the free love and compassion of God the Father, and of our Lord Jesus Christ, for us wretched sinners, as the source of all grace and consolation; the example we are to follow, the treatment as Christians we are to expect, and the conduct under it we are to adopt. Every lesson may here be learned that can profit the humbled soul. Let those who go about to establish their own righteousness inquire, why the beloved Son of God should thus suffer, if their own doings could atone for sin? Let the ungodly professor consider whether the Saviour thus honoured the Divine law, to purchase him the privilege of despising it. Let the careless take warning to flee from the wrath to come, and the trembling rest their hopes upon this merciful Redeemer. Let the tempted and distressed believer cheerfully expect a happy end of every trial.[/size]

Hvala abrahame na trudu ali još uvijek ne vidim objašnjenje zašto je prevdena ista riječ kao lav i kao probosti.

Kada se prenesemo u položaj pred lavom tada možemo imati imaginarno iskustvo i vidjeti da je to kao razapinjanje tj probadanje ruku - ne možemo se pomaknuti, posebno u agoniji žrtve koja se dobrovoljno prinela...u vrijeme suradnje Rimljana i Židova, Pilata i Sinedriona!:
they pierced The textual reading is kaari, `as a lion my hands and feet;' but several MSS read karoo, and others karoo in the margin, which affords the reading adopted by our translators. So the LXX [], so also the Vulgate, Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic; and as all the Evangelists so quote the passage, and apply it to the crucifixion of Christ, there seems little doubt that this is the genuine reading; especially when it is considered that the other contains no sense at all. The whole difference lies between wav and yood, which might be easily taken for one another. Zec 12:10 Mt 27:35 Mr 15:24 Lu 23:33 Joh 19:23,37 20:25,27

>[/right] <hr color=#ddeeff SIZE=1>Or (prolonged) earyeh {ar-yay'}; from 'arah (in the sense of violence); a lion -- (young) lion, + pierce (from the margin). see HEBREW 'arah

Tako Luther prevodi:
13 Ihren Rachen sperren sie auf gegen mich wie ein brüllender und reißender Löwe.

Pogledajmo također Jeruzalemsku bibliju, hrvatski prijevod što piše u fusnoti o razapnjanju ruku- kao konj da razapinje - tj lav..
Tu nam može pomoći Nonick..

Zadnja promjena: abraham; sub 12 tra 2008, 18:41; ukupno mijenjano 1 put.

abraham je napisao/la:

Kada se prenesemo u položaj pred lavom tada možemo imati imaginarno iskustvo i vidjeti da je to kao razapinjanje tj probadanje ruku - ne možemo se pomaknuti, posebno u agoniji žrtve koja se dobrovoljno prinela...u vrijeme suradnje Rimljana i Židova, Pilata i Sinedriona!:
they pierced The textual reading is kaari, `as a lion my hands and feet;' but several MSS read karoo, and others karoo in the margin, which affords the reading adopted by our translators. So the LXX [], so also the Vulgate, Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic; and as all the Evangelists so quote the passage, and apply it to the crucifixion of Christ, there seems little doubt that this is the genuine reading; especially when it is considered that the other contains no sense at all. The whole difference lies between wav and yood, which might be easily taken for one another. Zec 12:10 Mt 27:35 Mr 15:24 Lu 23:33 Joh 19:23,37 20:25,27

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tr><td class="ltext" width="25%"><< 737738. 'ariy (ar-ee')</td><td class="ltext" width="25%"> 739 >> </td></tr></table><hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">Or (prolonged) earyeh {ar-yay'}; from 'arah (in the sense of violence); a lion -- (young) lion, + pierce (from the margin). see HEBREW 'arah

Tako Luther prevodi:
13 Ihren Rachen sperren sie auf gegen mich wie ein brüllender und reißender Löwe.
Tu nam može pomoći Nonick..

Cijenim tvoj trud da objasniš ali bojim se da je to prilična teološka zavrzlama.fajtam se sa jednim židovom koji tvrdi daisus nije mesija i da o njemu u Starom zavjetu u tom kontekstu nema niti jednog retka.Dao mi je kao prvi primjer ovo što sam postavio kao temu na forum.
Naime on tvrdi da su kršćani izmjenili priličan dio SZ kako bi dokazali da je isus Mesija.Trenutno s njime prolazim cijelog Izaiju 53.....i

Pozdrav bratu Židovu, Bog Vas blagoslovio u istraživanju..
Pomoči ćemo koliko možemo..
Evo na primjer od Goldsteina , Židova , obračenika kako je on opisao Izaiju 53:
http://www.svetlostistine.com/Knjige/CarstvoBlagodatiGoldstajn/CarstvoBlagodati.pdf

u 6.poglavlju...
Ako Vam može poslužiti i ova teologija:

	1. Otkrivenje i nadahnuće
	2. Tumačenje Biblije
	3. Nauk o Bogu
	4. Krist – Njegova Osoba i djelo
	5. Doktrina o čovjeku
	6. Grijeh
	7. Spasenje
	8. Smrt – Podrijetlo, priroda i konačno uništenje
	9. Uskrsnuće i proslavljenje
	10. Svetište
	11. Stvaranje
	12. Božji zakon
	13. Subota
	14. Crkva
	15. Obredi: krštenje, pranje nogu i Gospodnja večera
	16. Duhovni darovi
	17. Služba pristava
	18. Hrišćanski način života i ponašanja
	19. Brak i porodica
	20. Zdravlje i ozdravljenje
	21. Biblijska apokaliptika
	22. Božanski sud
	23. Verni ostatak i tri anđeoske vesti
	24. Drugi dolazak Isusa Hrista
	25. Milenijum
	26. Nova Zemlja i večno carstvo
	27. Velika borba No najbolje je potražiti iz Levita pa sve do Hebrejima posalnice o Svetinji:

Dakle rijec je o Pasiji najavljenoj vec u Levitima:

Na engleskom:



pogledajte ilustracije Izaije 53 , mogu pomoci u istrazivanju..

jakob je napisao/la:

Na engleskom:



pogledajte ilustracije Izaije 53 , mogu pomoci u istrazivanju..

Zahvaljujem na prilozima.Podijeliti ću s vama ono što sam iskopao vezano uz sporne stihove iz Psalma 22.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/ps22cheat.html

Zahvaljujem na iskopavanju cinjenica u svezi prijevoda stihova 13 i 16 odnosno 14 i 17.
Zamolio sam brata Rubena Knezevica da nam pomogne u razjasnjenu te sam mu poslao navedenu adresu koju si naveo u odgovoru jakobu..
Ocekujemo zanimljive nalaze ..
No po samom smislu Svetinje koja navodi na Isusovu pasiju
to je neoboriv argument koji usmjerava istrazivanja..
blagoslov svima kopacima tajne

abraham je napisao/la:

Zahvaljujem na iskopavanju cinjenica u svezi prijevoda stihova 13 i 16 odnosno 14 i 17.
Zamolio sam brata Rubena Knezevica da nam pomogne u razjasnjenu te sam mu poslao navedenu adresu koju si naveo u odgovoru jakobu..
Ocekujemo zanimljive nalaze ..
No po samom smislu Svetinje koja navodi na Isusovu pasiju
to je neoboriv argument koji usmjerava istrazivanja..
blagoslov svima kopacima tajne

Super....nadam se zanimljivim povratnim informacijama....u međuvremenu molio bih te da mi prokomentiraš slijedeći slučaj koji mi je naveden kao prijeporan.

Matej 27,9-10

9Tada se ispuni što je
rečeno po proroku Jeremiji: Uzeše trideset srebrnjaka - cijenu
Neprocjenjivoga kojega procijeniše sinovi Izraelovi - 10i dadoše ih za njivu lončarovu kako mi naredi Gospodin.

Ovog odlomka nema u proroku Jeremiji.

Ima u Zahariji 11,12-13 stih koji govori o trideset srebrnjaka ali je kontekst drugačiji.
Lijep pozdrav.

1 A kad objutri, svi su glavari svećenički i starješine narodne održali vijećanje protiv Isusa da ga pogube. 2 I svezana ga odveli i predali upravitelju Pilatu.
3 Kada Juda, njegov izdajica, vidje da je Isus osuđen, pokaja se i vrati trideset srebrnjaka glavarima svećeničkim i starješinama 4 govoreći: Sagriješih predavši krv nedužnu! Odgovoriše: Što se to nas tiče? To je tvoja stvar! 5 I bacivši srebrnjake u Hram, ode te se objesi. 6 Glavari svećenički uzeše srebrnjake i rekoše: 7 Nije dopušteno staviti ih u hramsku riznicu jer su krvarina. Posavjetuju se i kupe za njih lončarovu njivu za ukop stranaca. 8 Stoga se ona njiva zove Krvava njiva sve do danas. 9 Tada se ispuni što je rečeno po proroku Jeremiji: Uzeše trideset srebrnjaka - cijenu Neprocjenjivoga kojega procijeniše sinovi Izraelovi - 10 i dadoše ih za njivu lončarovu kako mi naredi Gospodin.
U Jeremiji:

<< Jeremiah 18 >> Jeremiah 18 Croatian Bible

1 Ovo je riječ koju Jahve uputi Jeremiji: 2 Ustani i siđi u kuću lončarovu - ondje ću ti objaviti svoje riječi. 3 Siđoh, dakle, u kuću lončarovu, upravo je radio na lončarskom kolu. 4 I kako bi se koji sud što bi ga načinio od ilovače u ruci lončarovoj pokvario, on bi opet od nje pravio drugi - već kako se lončaru svidjelo da napravi.

<table cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><tr><td width="99%"><< Jeremiah 32 >> New American Standard Bible ©</TD> <td vAlign=top width="1%"></TD></TR></TABLE>Jeremiah Imprisoned 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the tenth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar. 2 Now at that time the army of the king of Babylon was besieging Jerusalem, and Jeremiah the prophet was shut up in the court of the guard, which was in the house of the king of Judah, 3 because Zedekiah king of Judah had shut him up, saying, “Why do you prophesy, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am about to give this city into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he will take it; 4 and Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hand of the Chaldeans, but he will surely be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he will speak with him face to face and see him eye to eye; 5 and he will take Zedekiah to Babylon, and he will be there until I visit him,” declares the LORD. “If you fight against the Chaldeans, you will not succeed”’?” 6 And Jeremiah said, “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 7 ‘Behold, Hanamel the son of Shallum your uncle is coming to you, saying, “Buy for yourself my field which is at Anathoth, for you have the right of redemption to buy it.”’ 8 “Then Hanamel my uncle’s son came to me in the court of the guard according to the word of the LORD and said to me, ‘Buy my field, please, that is at Anathoth, which is in the land of Benjamin; for you have the right of possession and the redemption is yours; buy it for yourself.’ Then I knew that this was the word of the LORD. 9 “I bought the field which was at Anathoth from Hanamel my uncle’s son, and I weighed out the silver for him, seventeen shekels of silve

9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel; 10 AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER’S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME.”

Tada reče Jeremija: Dođe mi riječ Jahvina: 7 'Uskoro će doći k tebi Hanamel, sin tvoga strica Šaluma, da ti kaže: Kupi njivu moju u Anatotu; ti imaš rodbinsko pravo da je kupiš!' 8 Kako je Jahve navijestio, k meni dođe moj stričević Hanamel u tamničko dvorište i reče mi: 'De kupi moju njivu u Anatotu, jer ti imaš pravo na posjed i rodbinsko pravo da je kupiš! Kupi je!' I tada spoznah da to bijaše riječ Jahvina.
9 Kupih, dakle, tu njivu od stričevića Hanamela iz Anatota te mu izmjerih u novcu sedamnaest šekela srebra. 10 Napišem ugovor, udarim pečat, pozovem svjedoke i izmjerim novac na tezulji. 11 Zatim uzmem kupovni ugovor, zapečaćen prema propisu i uredbama, 12 predam kupovni ugovor Baruhu, sinu Mahsejeva sina Nerije. Nazočni su bili: moj stričević Hanamel, svjedoci što su potpisali kupovni ugovor i svi Judejci koji su se našli u tamničkom dvorištu. 13 Tada pred njima zapovjedim Baruhu: 14 'Ovako govori Jahve nad Vojskama, Bog Izraelov: Uzmi ove isprave, ovaj kupovni ugovor, zapečaćeni i otvoreni, i stavi ih u glinenu posudu da se zadugo sačuvaju. 15 Jer ovako govori Jahve nad Vojskama, Bog Izraelov: Još će se u ovoj zemlji kupovati i kuće, i njive, i vinogradi!'
Hebrew OT: Aleppo Codex
ט ואקנה את השדה מאת חנמאל בן דדי אשר בענתות ואשקלה לו את הכסף שבעה שקלים ועשרה הכסף

James Bible with Strong's Numbers
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet saying And they took the thirty pieces of silver the price of him that was valued whom they of the children of Israel did value
Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition with Strong's Numbers
τότε ἐπληρώθη τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἰερεμίου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· καὶ ἔλαβον τὰ τριάκοντα ἀργύρια, τὴν τιμὴν τοῦ τετιμημένου ὃν ἐτιμήσαντο ἀπὸ υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ,
Greek NT: Byzantine / Majority Text (1995) with Strong's Numbers
τοτε επληρωθη το ρηθεν δια ιερεμιου του προφητου λεγοντος και ελαβοντα">

http://biblecommenter.com/matthew/27-9.htm


Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by {e} Jeremy the prophet, saying, {f} And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
(e) As this prophecy is found in Zec 11:12 it cannot be denied that Jeremy's name slipped into the text either through the fault of the Scribe, or by someone else's ignorance: it may also be that it came out of the margin by means of the abbreviation on one of the letters, the one being yod and the other being zayin, which are very similar: But in the Syrian text the Prophet's name is not written down at all.
(f) The evangelist does not follow the prophet's words, but instead he follows the prophet's meaning, which he shows to have been fulfilled.
People's New Testament
27:9 Then was fulfilled. The prophecy is found in Zec 11:12. Albert Barnes shows that a change of a single letter in the original would transform Zechariah into Jeremiah, and it is supposed that some early copyist made the mistake. Another explanation is that Jeremiah, in the Jewish arrangement of the prophets, stood first, and that his name was given to the whole book of prophecy.
Wesley's Notes
27:9 Then was fulfilled - What was figuratively represented of old, was now really accomplished. What was spoken by the prophet - The word Jeremy, which was added to the text in latter copies, and thence received into many translations, is evidently a mistake: for he who spoke what St. Matthew here cites (or rather paraphrases) was not Jeremy, but Zechariah. Zech 11:12.

The allusion is to Jer 18:1-4 19:1-3
but more distinctly to Zech 11:12,13.

7 Stadoh pasti ovce klanice za trgovce ovcama te uzeh dva štapa: jedan nazvah Naklonost, drugi Sveza. Tako sam pasao stado. 8 I u jednom mjesecu odbacih tri pastira. Ali mi i ovce dojadiše, omrznuh im. 9 Tad rekoh: Neću vas više pasti! Koja mora uginuti, nek' ugine! Koja mora nestati, nek' nestane! A koje ostanu, neka jedna drugoj meso prožderu! 10 Tad uzeh svoj štap Naklonost i slomih ga da raskinem Savez svoj što ga bijah sklopio sa svim narodima. 11 I on se raskinu onog dana, i trgovci ovcama koji su to gledali doznaše da je to bila riječ Jahvina. 12 Rekoh im tad: Ako vam je to dobro, dajte mi plaću; ako nije, nemojte. Oni mi odmjeriše plaću: trideset srebrnika. 13 A Jahve mi reče: Baci u riznicu tu lijepu cijenu kojom su me procijenili! Ja uzeh trideset srebrnika i bacih u riznicu u Domu Jahvinu. 14 Onda slomih i svoj drugi štap, Svezu - da raskinem bratstvo između Jude i Izraela.

Halo , brat Emanuel,
evo stigao je odgovor od barat Rubena Knezevica..Mislim da ce biti koristan i drugima u razgovoru i istrazivanju ako i u uciteljstvu i disputaciji :
Evo, stigao sam pogledati. Redak 13 nije sporan, tu se radi o lavu. Kod
retka 16. izvornik je nesiguran, prijevodi to razlicito rjesavaju i taj je
redak predmet brojnih rasprava. Donosim nize prijevod i opsirno tumacenje
iz New English Translation, a koje bi moglo pomoci. NET Bible inace je
on-line dostupna na www.bible.org (odnosno ovaj redak na
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Psa&chapter=22#n38) i preporucam je zbog
dobroga prijevoda i
korisnih fusnota. Nadam se da engleski nije problem.

---
22:13 They open their mouths to devour me

like a roaring lion that rips its prey. 30


30 - tn Heb "like a lion, my hands and my feet." This reading is often
emended because it is grammatically awkward, but perhaps its awkwardness is
by rhetorical design. Its broken syntax may be intended to convey the panic
and terror felt by the psalmist. The psalmist may envision a lion pinning
the hands and feet of its victim to the ground with its paws (a scene
depicted in ancient Near Eastern art), or a lion biting the hands and feet.
The line has been traditionally translated, "they pierce my hands and feet,"
and then taken as foreshadowing the crucifixion of Christ. Though Jesus does
appropriate the language of this psalm while on the cross (compare v. 1 with
Matt 27:46 and Mark 15:34), the NT does not cite this verse in describing
the death of Jesus. (It does refer to vv. 7-8 and 18, however. See Matt
27:35, 39, 43; Mark 15:24, 29; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24.) If one were to
insist on an emendation of ???????? (ka'ariy, "like a lion") to a verb, the
most likely verbal root would be ?????? (karah, "dig"; see the LXX). In this
context this verb could refer to the gnawing and tearing of wild dogs (cf.
NCV, TEV, CEV). The ancient Greek version produced by Symmachus reads "bind"
here, perhaps understanding a verbal root ???, which is attested in later
Hebrew and Aramaic and means "to encircle, entwine, embrace" (see HALOT
497-98 s.v. ??? and Jastrow 668 s.v. ???????). Neither one of these proposed
verbs can yield a meaning "bore, pierce."

---


Nemam, nazalost, vremena ukljucivati se na forum - jer radim na dovrsetku
nekoliko projekata, ali nadam se da ce ovo pomoci. Pokusajte nekako
dostaviti ovaj e-mail "Emanuelu", vjerujem da ce mu pomoci.

Bratski pozdrav,

Ruben